What's Herpenin'? A Reptile Conversation
Welcome to the What's Herpenin' podcast. We're all about championing the conservation, education, and laws surrouding the captivaiting world of reptiles. Meet your hosts, Chris, George, and Cassie, as they engage in discussions with keepers, conservationists, and reptile aficionados. Join us as we snake our way through fascinating topics aimed at ensuring the well-being of our captive snakes lizards, turtles, amphibians, and even an occasional jumping spider.
What's Herpenin'? A Reptile Conversation
Battle of the Mites: Combating Ophionyssus Natricis in Your Reptile Enclosures
Can you imagine tiny, relentless invaders disrupting the peace of your reptile enclosures? Join us on a fascinating journey as we unpack the world of Ophionyssus Natricis, the notorious reptile mites described in 1844. Learn how these tiny pests have evolved to thrive in environments that mimic common reptile setups, wreaking havoc for captive and wild reptiles. We’ll provide a comprehensive breakdown of their five life stages and the environmental conditions that fuel their rapid lifecycle.
Ever wondered why your snake is spending more time in its water bowl or if certain species, like the false water cobra, possess natural defenses against mites? We tackle these questions head-on, sharing our experiences with various treatment methods, including the strategic use of predatory mites and the application of diluted ivermectin spray. Get practical advice on managing and eliminating these pests, ensuring the health and comfort of your reptilian friends.
Hear the candid recounting of our own battles with unexpected mite infestations, starting with a Brazilian rainbow boa, Waffle. Discover the challenges we faced transitioning from bioactive setups to simpler environments and the crucial role of veterinary care in managing infestations. Through our story, gain insights into the importance of community support and the shared journey of overcoming these common, yet manageable, reptile challenges.
This podcast is produced by volunteers of US ARC Florida, a nonprofit organization promoting conservation, education and legislation for reptiles in the state of Florida.
Speaker 3:Welcome to US ARC Florida Unle. Today, your hosts George, cassie and Chris, we might be discussing something that is very important for reptile keepers everywhere, especially reptile keepers that keep snakes and even skinks.
Speaker 1:What might that be?
Speaker 2:That might be the dreaded reptile mite Aphonisis natrisus, and if I butchered that name I apologize. I'm not an entomologist, nor am I fluent in Latin, so I apologize if I butchered that, but that is the scientific term for the reptile mite, also known as those blood-sucking bastards. So let's talk about the reptile mite. So the reptile mite was first described in 1844, which shocked me. I didn't realize it went back that far, but it was for 1844, and it was collected in specimens that were in European zoos around Paris and Rome. And, interestingly, this was very interesting to me because the very first specimens that were collected were connected, were collected on a dice snake, which is a European water snake. Um, that surprised me because of the uh propensity to of mites to drown, so that, so that surprised me. But they were the very first ones that that were collected.
Speaker 2:Um, we really don't know what their native range is, where they originally come from. Some have theorized that they originated in Africa and that ball pythons might be their natural host, but we really don't know where they came from. They're found worldwide, on reptiles across the boards, that's, snakes, lizards, turtles, crocodiles, other reptiles. They've been found on all of those different species and the reptile mite has been found both in the wild and in captivity. There was some suggestion when I was doing my research that possibly the wild, that some of the wild mites, might have come from captive escapees. But then particularly in Australia they found mites that were on reptiles that were a significant distance from any human population. So they're pretty sure that they did not have exposure to anything that was in captivity.
Speaker 3:Okay and question about that. So it's been said, you know, we've heard in, you know, especially you know in the reptile community that they are much more of a captivity problem than a problem for snakes in the wild. What has your research really said on that? Is it more of a captivity?
Speaker 2:both a captive and a wild problem. But I think that captivity probably sets up some unique circumstances for infestation that the wild doesn't have right, because these are solitary animals Um, I don't know how often they come in contact with each other in the wild so the opportunity for a, for a pest, to jump from individual to individual, I think, would be much reduced, whereas in captivity, obviously, especially in collections that have high density, you just have the perfect environment for them.
Speaker 3:So maybe it's like it depends on the mating behaviors of the snake.
Speaker 2:I would say maybe, depending on how long, probably yeah yeah, and, like I said, it's not just snakes, it's other reptiles as well. So, um, obviously they're still finding ways to uh, to, to move from reptile to reptile, but I think again that we have created a very unique situation, bringing them in into captivity. So we'll talk a little bit about the mite life cycle. Um, and I think this is significant specifically when it comes to controlling the control of mites and eliminating mites. So snake mites have five life stages it's the egg, a larva, a proto-nymph, a do-do-nymph and an adult. What's interesting is and as I go through this you'll start to realize that literally I'm describing your average ball python enclosure right. So ideal environmental conditions for all life stages of the snake might are temperatures of 75 to 85 degrees Fahrenheit and a relative humidity of 70 to 90 to 90%, which is almost spot on for what you're going to find for people recommending you keep your ball python enclosure at. So again, this is this is you know, it's absolutely perfect for these, for these parasites.
Speaker 2:The other interesting thing is the development and survivorship of all life stages are negatively affected by unfavorable conditions. So the heat, cold and lack of moisture will kill them. So in excess of 105 degrees they start to die, and that's Fahrenheit. And then, below 35 degrees, they also Fahrenheit, they also start to die. So they are susceptible to extreme temperatures the other things. They are susceptible to extreme temperatures, the other things. They will drown when they get wet and they will desiccate at levels of humidity below 20%. So they need that humid environment. In most snake collections they can complete their life cycle in 13 to 19 days if it is in their ideal temperature range. If it is cooler temperatures, then some of the individuals may live longer, up to 40 days, if the temperature is cooler. So let's go through the different phases of the snake mite. So we'll talk about the egg first.
Speaker 2:Females lay one or two dozen eggs at a time and during their lifespan they may lay 60 to 80 eggs. The eggs adhere to the surfaces on which they're laid, and the other interesting thing is that eggs are rarely laid on the snake host of the adult mites. So the mites typically leave the host to lay their eggs. Female mites prefer to lay eggs in dark, humid places. Again, just like our ball pythons, they love dark, humid places. If the eggs are laid on the snake which again is not typical they're usually in the space around the eye or under the anal scale. Eggs hatch in a day in ideal conditions, which is really fast. I did not realize they incubated that quickly. However, at cooler temperatures, again, everything takes longer for the mite in cooler temperatures. So they could take up to four days to hatch.
Speaker 2:And there is some suggestion that the egg mites, that the eggs from mites, might live for a long time. As just you know, they may be viable for a long time. There are some ticks that exhibit this behavior, but the research that I found online said that they were not able to find any evidence to support this belief, so that the eggs do not, you know, do not remain viable for a long, long time. All right, so let's talk about the larval phase. This obviously follows the egg phase, and this stage lasts for only a day or two. Um, what's interesting to me about this is that you know the, uh, the larval, the larval phase. They're almost invisible to the naked eye. They don't feed when they're in this phase and they they're capable of walking, but they don't do anything. They just kind of sit in place and hang around by the eggs where they were hatched.
Speaker 2:And then after that, we have the proto-nymph phase, and this stage lasts for three days to two weeks, so this is a significantly long phase in the life cycle of the mite. This stage is mobile and they may move considerable distances. I actually I don't remember if I talk about this, but I did see some distances online of how far these mites can travel and it's pretty shocking 55 feet, I think, was one in 24 hours. For a little bug, that's a lot of distance to cover. They are attracted by the smell of snakes and they have to have a blood meal in order to metamorphosis into the next phase. So they have to feed in order to make the next jump. And what's interesting is they eat and then they leave the snake. So they attach, they eat, they leave, then they go again back for another dark, humid location and they shed. And that's usually happens within 12 to four hours, 12 to 24 hours after feeding. So they shed and then they enter the next phase. They leave their host snake and travel until they find a dark, humid location in the snake cage and then they'll shed once they found that, and this usually occurs 12 to 24 hours after feeding.
Speaker 2:What's interesting is the proto-nymphs. When you see snake mites dead in a bowl of water, they are almost always proto-nymphs that have drowned and that is typically your first indicator that you have. For most keepers, that's the first indicator that they have a mite. Problem is, they will see what looks like little flat pieces of pepper in the water bowl and, on close inspection, they have legs. But it's typically the protonymphs that are the first thing that are seen in the water bowl, first thing that are seen in the water bowl.
Speaker 2:After that you have the deutonymph and in this stage they are soft-bodied, dark, red or black in color. Again, they don't eat during this phase and they don't typically move all that much from their location. That's from where they shed, right. So they will shed, they will enter this new phase and they typically don't don't move much. Um, they also are not typically attached to snakes at this point. Um, the one exception is sometimes around the space, around very large snakes around their eyes, you will find, uh, doodle nymphs.
Speaker 2:Um, they only stay in this phase for about 24 hours and then they shed to become adults. They only stay in this phase for about 24 hours and then they shed to become adults and they're pretty ugly adults. They got eight legs and they're hairy, which is a nice touch and I would say they kind of resemble a a, but on a much smaller scale. Um, as an adult, uh, they will uh start to feed and they will feed for one to two days before they reach engorgement. Um, once they get full, the males release to wander off and um and look for mates. Right, so they will. They will drop off the snake and look for mates. The males only feed several times in their life and in optimal conditions, the adults last for 10 to 32 days.
Speaker 2:Adult females are much bigger. They are fat and black and more noticeable in a major infestation. So typically, if you see mites and they're very noticeable they're probably the females. What's interesting to me is that females mate with the males before they take their first blood meal, so they will mate before they eat. These matings produce only females.
Speaker 2:If a female mite encounters a snake host before mating, they will climb on board and begin a feeding session. Males will not mate with an engorged female and if they've eaten first, these females will lay a clutch of eggs that become only males. So it's a really interesting life cycle. Females will feed three or four times in their lives. So, uh, talking about how much they can, they can move um. A gravid female so pregnant and gravid, looking for a place to lay eggs can travel at a speed up to eight inches per minute and they can cover 48 feet per hour. So just just put that, put that into think about the room where you have your reptiles and the fact that those mites can cover. A gravid female, complete with her eggs, can travel 48 feet per hour. So they they cover a lot of distance and it would not be hard for that animal, for that that might, to move, to move back and to move back and forth um between between enclosures.
Speaker 1:That's insane. A mite is like the size of a freckle.
Speaker 2:I know they're tiny, tiny and they cover so much ground and it's it's no wonder. It's no wonder that people have such bad infestations with them. Yeah, the other thing that I learned, that and it sounds like the science is still isn't crystal clear on this they do believe that these mites are that they do transmit illnesses. They're looking at IBD as possibly being transmitted by, by mites. Um, obviously, just a mite infestation alone, you know, can cause anemia in a snake. Um, it can, uh, you know it's it, it it can be very, very detrimental to the snake's health. Um, but again, they're also looking at some of these other diseases and and they're, and they're wondering if they're. They're also looking at some of these other diseases and they're wondering if they're spread by mites. Ibd was the one that was mentioned most frequently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:The other interesting thing that I'll share with you guys is that I did not know at all until I did the research People can get infected with snake mites.
Speaker 1:Can they?
Speaker 3:Yes they can? Where do the mites take up residence on humans?
Speaker 2:I don't know where they take up residence, but they will cause a form of dermatitis Is it like scabies. Scabies was exactly what was mentioned that scabies like Now we are not their preferred host. Right, it's not like they, they, they easily make this transition, but some will in, apparently in desperation, whatever um, and there have been definitely documented cases of people with reptile mites that's unfortunate so I was actually listening to.
Speaker 3:I don't remember if I was listening to a youtube video or a tiktok or whatever, but I was. What it was saying was that we actually have mites that live in our eyelashes that are just not visible to the naked eye.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Haven't you seen any of those? When they do like the electron microscope into the, yeah, like clinging to every one of our eyelashes or all these, it's like 20.
Speaker 3:I think I was in high school biology, and they told us that on every single one of our faces we have like 20 000 insects. Now I'm not saying that's a scientific fact and you know how science can you know, can change with no new information. But knowing how small some of these things can get, it doesn't really, it doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility.
Speaker 1:We're gonna stop so I can go wash my face now there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 2:I will still be there when you get back yeah, I don't know that you can get rid of them. I don't know that that's a, that that's a thing. Well, not without doing yourself serious harm.
Speaker 3:So did. Did any of your research go into how this, like how it works with the mites getting under this? Do they have like a certain kind of scale they prefer?
Speaker 2:It didn't. So they did say that the mites are photophobic and that's why they burrow under the scale. So it's it's twofold a. It gets them access to the fleshy bits, but also they don't like light so they get under the scale to hide from the light. They said they're very photophobic.
Speaker 3:And I think anyone that's treated or at least picked up that their snake had mites usually a big indicator is that the snake is usually going to be in its water bowl a lot more frequently. Is there anything that you came across that said how long it takes for mites to drown?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. I didn't find anything that said specifically on time frame, other than it did say that they are susceptible to drowning, which we all kind of knew, because anybody who's had any mites, like I said, you've seen them in the water bowl, right? So, um and uh, yeah, so no, no, I didn't see any. I didn't see any specific timeframe on how long it takes. I imagine that they don't respirate very quickly. I don't know, I wouldn't think they would need. I, I can almost you know, um, I don't know. I, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I would be lying if I, I was just thinking about it. I don't, I'm not an entomologist.
Speaker 3:I don't know what.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because we've all dealt with our snake issues, with their mites, and one snake that we have is a false water cobra. Shout out to Valhalla Exotics and that snake is always in the water. But that's how the snake has always was, from day one. So like I'm wondering if and I'm not saying you know, don't check your stuff but like I wonder if a snake like that would probably have a higher resistance to the possibility of getting by. It's not necessarily being not necessarily be more immune, just you know, this snake spends most of its time in the water, so if a mite gets on, it just going to drown it, whereas if you see a corn snake all of a sudden become quite a bit more aquatic, there's definitely going to be a problem.
Speaker 2:What I don't know is, when they get under the scale, how much of a micro environment they've created for themselves. So what I wonder is and kind of what I was going to speculate on, but I really don't know is I wonder if there's, you know, is there any air trapped under that scale? When, when, when it goes under the water Right and, and then at that point, like, is that, do you have to wait for that to get used up? And or are the some of the scales? Does it just flood? Like I just don't know enough about what happens under snake scales when they get into water. I kind of feel like they're I doubt they're waterproof per se, but I feel like they're flat enough against the scale next to them that I can see water having difficulty getting in. I guess is kind of what I'm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I mean they are flush with each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep.
Speaker 3:So, it's like's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a little, uh little little air pocket, but I guess it also depends on the kind of snake too sure, sure, yeah, because scales are different, right, um, and, and, and, even just beyond snakes, right, like all the lizards, all the turtles, all you know everything's, the scales are slightly different. Um, what I'd be curious to have you guys, you know, we, we kind of talked about how we've all had our, had our experience with mites. Um, you know, I I think it would be interesting for us to talk about, kind of how we've dealt with them in the past. And, um, you know, for, for me, um, it was my ball python I speculate, don't know for a fact that I brought a piece of decoration from a show, a store, somewhere like that, that had mites on it. Again, I can't say for sure, but she was my only snake and there were no new snakes coming in when she got mites, so it came from somewhere coming in when she got mites, so it came from somewhere.
Speaker 2:In my case, I went and bought a bunch of stuff that I ended up not using. I ended up buying the Preventamite and then I read enough folks who were concerned specifically about neurological effects that I was a little nervous about using it and ultimately, what I ended up doing was I ended up using predatory mites and I ordered them online and they were specifically to eat. I mean, they eat a bunch of different infesting insects, including fungus gnats, which was a beautiful side benefit that I didn't anticipate was going to happen. Um, but that's how I managed to get rid of. To get rid of mine was I cut these, these uh predatory mites loose and, um, it seemed to control it. It wasn't instantaneous, but it was. But it was fairly quick and, like I said, the bonus was fungus gnats went away.
Speaker 1:Nice. Um, I think for us our first, because unfortunately we've we've experienced this a few times. Our first was with our Brazilian rainbow boa waffle and and I'm trying to think of how what it was that I first saw, because before him I had never seen a snake mite. We never had this issue before with any of our other snakes.
Speaker 1:I remember his eyes looking weird and upon taking him out of his enclosure and looking at him more closely, we could see the mites moving around, but there were definitely some around his eye areas and it just looked. It didn't look good. George, before I carry on, you wanted to share something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I was just going to say that we kept at that time. We kept him in a bioactive environment and so when we first saw stuff, you know, crawling, it didn't really strike us as odd because up to this point we hadn't dealt with snake mites. So just the idea of, oh, there's a bug or something small walking around on the snake was not a cause of alarm for us. We were aware snake mites existed, but we had isopods, we had springtails, and this is where I find the story gets a little weird. You know, when you have a big collection of animals, like we did at the time, there are some animals that just get handled more than others. That's just. That's just how it works.
Speaker 3:This snake was not one of the ones that we handled and we we theorize that. You know, we easily got these mites from, you know, a reptile show, a reptile store. You know a reptile show, a reptile store? Yeah, but the thing is we were not bringing home decor and wood and putting it into this particular snake's enclosure, like this snake was not one of our more handled snakes and it was in the back of the house, yeah, so you know, out of like the 30, 40 animals we had at that time. You know you had to walk by like 35 up to 39 of them to get to this. So it was so strange and unfortunately, no, they spread after that. But it was so strange that it started in the with that one that we really didn't interact with that much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think what, what we first did um cause again, it was our first time experiencing this. We consulted a lot of just literature online and a lot of. Youtube videos. I think one of the ones that was really helpful for us was Snake Discovery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they did a great job covering how they made the solution with Dawn dish soap and then water with the diluted ivermectin and then water with the diluted ivermectin. So for waffle we started that very first night, I believe, we did a soak with Dawn dish soap to help the mites slide out of the scales and then we put them in a sterile bin with paper towels just so we can monitor everything dying off. And then the next day is when we started with another soak, and then post soak we did the diluted ivermectin spray and then just kind of like wiped his scales.
Speaker 1:You know the full length of his body to catch anything. And I don't get the heebie jeebies easily, but I remember at some point after handling him just looking at my hands and seeing, seeing them on my hand. So now that I know that humans can get them, I'm like dang Yep, ew that was yeah.
Speaker 2:That Raina, my daughter, was the first one. She was handling my, my ball Python and she was like I think your snake has mites and I'm like what she's like.
Speaker 3:look at these little black things all over my hand and I was like oh and so, and I just remember, you know, when this first happened, we were so, so embarrassed to like, even like talk about it when, when it happened, because you know, we, you know we talked to a lot of people in the reptile community, uh, but this is just one of those things that until it really happens to you, you don't really think about it that much. And I remember we went to Pepazar and we started talking about what happened and they were very reassuring. They're like look, no matter how well you prepare, no matter how careful you are, this is a thing that happens to everybody. So now we're a bit more open when it comes to figuring out what to do and getting advice.
Speaker 1:But you know, I just remember, like it like, since it was our first time, like how embarrassed, because it's like yeah, and, and there was for me like a degree, like because we I think we care very well for our animals, so like I, I almost felt like shame on top of the embarrassment. So hearing everyone say, oh, this is to be expected at some point, um was really surprising. But like to this day, you know we're still hearing, oh, it's bound to happen. But I feel like they're still like, for me at least, maybe that's just a hang up. I have to get over.
Speaker 3:You know, it's like these poor animals, like I feel, I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I know we're not, you know yeah, yeah, we just try to, yeah, as we, after we dealt with a waffle the way the rainbow boa getting the mites, you know we thought we were in the clear and then I want to say it was a very short time later it spread to our our uh columbian boa, uh edgar, and with him it was a bit more of a of, uh. It was a pretty. It was a pretty smooth experience, you know as smooth as mites can be. You know, we treated him. We, we trashed his bot, the bioactive part of the enclosure. Yeah, we treated him. He cleared up relatively quick. We got him into a new, new enclosure.
Speaker 3:That is where, every time we deal with mites, we always started from trying to have our animals set in a bioactive enclosure. And the reasons why were just for reasons we can get into in another episode. I came at it from a neurological development standpoint. I came at it from like a neurological development kind of standpoint. But unfortunately, when we read up on mice and saw, like how you saw in your research, how easily they spread and how almost all of our enclosures are just designed to to help them, to host they are.
Speaker 3:They are. We have been, unfortunately and like it's not nice to look at but I know the animals are better off we have been going with much more simplistic designs. Unfortunately, right now we have a couple of snakes that have paper towels as substrate, which again is not fun to look at. But we are trying like this is something that to a large degree, we're still trying to bring under control because you know, we do have a handful of snakes and we have a. We treated a, a ball python, we treated a florida king snake.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately the, the florida king snake, that one did not have a very happy ending. Just mistake with the treatments that unfortunately we ended up losing that snake. But it was a few weeks later that, you know, we checked on our blood python, which was in a different room and at this point the podcast, I think we know how far mites can go and we think that she definitely caught them right around the same time. But the snake was not acting abnormal, she wasn't going into her water bowl, she was coming out to eat like, acting like a very normal blood python anyone that keeps blood pythons knows. And then, just one day I had the bright idea to really just inspect her and I should have done done it weeks ago, but better late than never and Cassie came in the room to tell me something I don't remember what it was and I picked up the hide and I looked at her and it's like the world went quiet for a second. I don't know what Cassie said to me and I just look and I go.
Speaker 3:April has mites and the problem with her particular pattern is that she has one of those patterns that has speckles on it. So if you just glanced at her and that's a problem with a few snakes, even the Florida Kingsnake, the way her pattern is if you've seen a Florida Kingsnake, you know they have just black spots on them randomly. So at first glance you're just like, oh, there's no problem at all.
Speaker 1:But then I saw like I just saw tons and tons of black dots moving and it was just like, uh, and now that we had this nice science lesson at the beginning, I'm fairly confident that they were females based on size, um and color. They, they they were.
Speaker 3:oh, it was ladies night on that snake yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah so something interesting.
Speaker 1:So I know we were talking earlier about you know, often people find snakes who have a mice, mice, wow, a mice infestation. There we go.
Speaker 2:Those are happy snakes.
Speaker 1:Who have mice. Often they'll find a source of water right. To relieve themselves Um waffle. I never once saw him in water. He just carried on with his normal behaviors. Um April wasn't in the water. The only one that, um, we actually saw in the water was Edgar. I want to say so only one of the four that we've experienced this with actually found a source of water to help them out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, my ball python did not. She didn't. Now we did. I did see. And again, now that I know that you know the proto-nymphs are the ones that typically are found drowned in the water bowl, we did see those, but also, like I kind of initially chalked it up to just crap from inside the enclosure, right like just pieces of substrate and whatever that had got into the bowl, like I really didn't even give it, give it a thought, um. But also, like I said, she wasn't soaking either. She had a bowl that she could have soaked in, but she did not. Um, I don't know, maybe it's that the infestation has to get really bad before it gets really irritating that they want to go maybe because apparently they're really seeking relief.
Speaker 3:Right, that's, that's what they're after, is just is the is the relief of being in the water, and I imagine that they, a bunch of the mites, do let go and they probably you know it, probably feels better no, I was just going to tell more of a story, just just a continuation of treating april where you know we treated her and literally we don't know where those nymphs were, we do not know where these mites were coming from, but we have her, unfortunately, right now we have her in a plastic bin with just white paper towels and every time I soak her, her it would just be polka dots. Yeah, and we've done this like three or four times now. I've checked on her the last couple of days and it looks like we've finally stabilized, but it took like three or four treatments and I put her on like clean paper towels and then the next day just polka dots.
Speaker 2:Yep, is she a big girl? I mean, I know, blood pythons are typically chunky monkeys, but is she a good size?
Speaker 3:She's still young. She is about two. Let me think about this for a second. She is going on two years old. She's right around two. I don't know how old she was when I got her. I think she was only a few weeks. Uh, it's just in September. October is when I will hit my. I believe it was October. We will hit two years with her and waffle Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, what's interesting is there was, you know, going through Google scholar and reading lots of, lots of articles on on on reptile mites. You know, I, I think that you, we probably all heard the some of the proposed treatments. And there is and I and I'm not there is there was an article on Google scholar about an, a, a treatment that could be given to the snakes internally. That seemed to be safe. Seemed to be safe, right, I don't, it doesn't I, reading the article, I felt like it was a small sample size, like that, and I don't, I don't remember specifically how big the sample was, but it does look like people are still working on this. That does seem that there's there's interest. You know, a lot of the flea treatments seem to be effective against, against.
Speaker 1:Yeah, our vet said that.
Speaker 2:And bed bug treatments as well.
Speaker 2:Yes neck scar, yep, yep, and. But again, you know, I don't know that we've, I don't know how closely this has been looked into to understand, you know, the impact, the long-term impact on on the snake. Obviously the long-term impact of mites is not good either, but but I don't know what the, what research has been done, but it does look like it is. It is ongoing and they are looking at kind of the, the, the typical commercial insecticides, right, that are that, like I said, like the flea and tick stuff, um and the bed, oh and um, lice, that's what it was the lice, the lice treatment. I've also heard people using, using the, uh, the, the, the active ingredient, and whatever they use for people to get rid of, to get rid of lice, um, I don't, you know, I can't, I can't speak to the safety of any of those, of any of those things, because I've never used them. But again, it does sound like there's some promising possibilities out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would just be nervous of anything that has really strong chemicals in it, because some of these animals and unfortunately we have found out the hard way, some of these animals can be more delicate than you would think they are.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep. Well, and, like I said, and again, no knock on on prevent a mite, um, but I just I had read about potential neurological issues and I was just afraid to spray it in the enclosure, because all I'm thinking about is I'm imagining somebody coming in and dousing the walls of my bedroom with a chemical and then closing the door and say, okay, you got to stay in here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, breathe it in.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, um. So that's why I was really hesitant and, to be honest with you, I don't even know where the bottle is. I, I it was, it was not cheap stuff, but I, just I was just, you know, I was just nervous to use it. I will say I had great success with the predatory mites, um, and would. It would encourage folks, um, uh, you know, especially early on, I think, to to give it a, to give it a try. Um, you know, and and see, and the only reason I'm saying early on is because I don't know what the you know, obviously, the impact of other treatments, I imagine, for example, ivermectin probably kills the uh, kills the predatory mites as well, right, so, so it might be better to start with that then, um, then then move to it.
Speaker 3:But I again, I don't, I don't really know um so we're talking a lot about treating mites, a lot of how to handle mites. In your research, have you come across ways to like different things that we can do to prevent them from even getting into the first place? Now they come in on our clothes. So, yeah, I think, a protocol that you know, I think we should implement. You know, I, I think, I think about it and I talk about it. Whether we actually do it's a different story. But as soon as you get home, strip down, throw all your clothes in the wash, take a shower.
Speaker 2:It's like, it's stuff like that something that could, that's, I mean they they specifically talked about reptile expos as a as a transmission vector. I mean they specifically talked about that. Um and again, think about how far those, those mites, can go. Like, think about it, would not from a mite to go from table to table to table, like that's not, that's not, that's not hard to imagine at all. No, it's not bad a mic to go from table to table to table, like that's not, that's not, that's not hard to imagine at all.
Speaker 3:No, it's not. With some of these, with some of these expos really just kind of being ball Python festivals, they, they'll probably spread like fire yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I um, so I think you're right, I think that's, you know, I think washing your hands, sanitizing your hands, um, you know, being, you know, you know, don't rush home, like you said, don't rush home and grab your snakes, go take a shower and get rid of the clothes that you wore. And, yeah, I think that's probably the most you can do, you know, certainly with knowing that temperatures over 135 degrees kill them. So, florida, certainly, well, yeah, florida right now, for sure, but I think bringing things home, you can certainly bake them, yeah, which you know I do, do now, I do do now, I do do that now. It's like doo-doo.
Speaker 2:I do bake the things that I bring home, just because I just want to be cautious. Hi, future Chris here. Apologies for the interruption. After having a discussion about mites on Facebook, my friend Joseph pointed out to me that something that we inadvertently missed when we were discussing the ways you could prevent mites from coming into your collection. As Joseph pointed out, he's never had a mite problem because he has such a strict protocol for quarantining any new animals that come home, and that's something that we did not cover and should have, and so I just wanted to make sure that we called attention to that that quarantining any animal you bring, any new animal you bring into your home, is super important, not just from a mite's perspective, but from a general disease perspective. And now we'll get back to the show.
Speaker 1:Are mites on plants. Like living plants, do they dwell there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mites do, but these ones don't. Yes, yeah, yeah, mites, there are mites. And that's what actually, the place that I ordered my predatory mites from, they encouraged me to dump the extra onto my house plants because they said that the predatory mites will also eliminate mit basis on enclosures and I'm just throwing this out an idea.
Speaker 3:Let's say maybe two, three times a year, you just toss them in. If there's no mites, they'll all just die anyway. But if there are mites, then, maybe you took every problem you didn't know you had and never figured it out Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, that is, you could definitely do that. The problem is you'll never know how effective it is. You won't, you won't, and, and it's um and. While mites are not terribly expensive, um, when I ordered them, the biggest thing is they need to be shipped, I think overnight, if I'm not mistaken. So you end up, while the mites themselves are not expensive, the shipping gets, gets ugly quick and I, if you were doing it, I guess I mean I don't. I guess depends on how much mites bother you, how willing are you to invest in prevention?
Speaker 3:Well, I would say us here in Florida are probably a lot more susceptible to mites overall than, say, reptile keepers out in Arizona. I'm not saying they don't have them, but I imagine that our animals are more likely to get mites than reptile keepers in more arid environments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a humid environment, yep, yep. So yeah, so even when they're out of the enclosure, they're still in a fairly hospitable environment right in Florida, whereas if they get out of the enclosure, like you said, in Arizona, they might not be in quite so hospitable an environment. So, yeah, I mean that would make sense. Yeah, so I think you know we. So, as far as treatment goes right, I think we've got the predatory mites right. That's a possibility. We talked about ivermectin. Ivermectin, do you guys know? As far as instructions on, do you a source on on like what to dilute to and and?
Speaker 3:so I'm not. I don't want to give any official numbers on this podcast, just you know, god forbid. Yeah, understood, but I can tell you that I got well, we got our information from snake discovery and it has been effective. And it was when we tried something else. It was something inadvertent, but it was when we tried something else. It was something inadvertent, but it was when we tried something else that things went wrong. But when we tried the way that snake discovery which I'm not going to give their measurements, just again, I don't want to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's but they. But I assume they have a video about yes, yes, they do so that so find out the what, how to how to dilute the eye.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I, and, and, like anything else, and I'm sure, like literally anything else we talk about on this channel, I'll say, don't just watch them. You know, watch, definitely watch a handful of videos. I mean, yeah, snake discovery is definitely like a good first resource, but, you know, see what else, see what else is out there, because you know if, also, if you're going to bring your snake to the vet for next card, because next card, from what I've, one treatment's enough to wipe out the entire problem. The problem is you're going to probably going to spend about 150 to $400 at the vet. God only knows how much the medication itself costs. So there's definitely a sliding scale of effectiveness versus guarantee, versus price. Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:And I just want to share for anyone who might choose the ivermectin solution be very careful. There is no room for error at all and unfortunately, george and I had a hard lesson learned. And at the first sign of your snake being lethargic, going blue, just looking lifeless, take them to a vet immediately. Don't wait. It gets bad quick and the animal suffers. So at the first sign of my animal is not well, take going to the vet because and I understand, because a lot of times vets are full of misinformation, because they don't get a lot of training and so I think they've gotten a bad reputation amongst the reptile community.
Speaker 2:But there are some really good ones out there. Reptile community, but there are some really good ones out there and I think that you know we should be embracing those and encouraging people to go to the vet more and to you know, to the other thing is guess what, if we start bringing our animals to the vet more, it's going to be seen as a source of income and the vets are going to get interested in it, and that's the reality.
Speaker 3:I want to add something else to that as well. So I brought my one of my Savannah monitors to the exotic uh, exotic animal hospital of orlando. Uh, dr alejandro diaz was the doctor that I had, I think what's his name. I think it was doctor, it was not his name.
Speaker 2:You whipped off that name real quick. No, it was dr diaz.
Speaker 3:But anyway, the reason I bring him up is because when I brought andy to him, him I had blood work done, I had x-rays done, I had everything done because he wasn't eating his food right. It looked like he couldn't aim his head right and nothing came up. They found once something had gone on with a vertebrae from a fall, which we were able to treat no problem. But I was like, hey, let's go ahead and do blood tests, just in case there's anything else going on. Hey, let's go ahead and do blood tests just in case there's anything else going on. I'd rather fork out the money now to treat whatever it is you find.
Speaker 3:And what happened was a couple days later he called me and he said to me hey, I got your blood work, we got all these levels. The problem is that we don't have a baseline for the species because just not a lot of people bring them in. So what he ended up doing was comparing them to the blood work of a bearded dragon and a and a leopard gecko. So and I, I can't, I can't, uh, attack him for his, you know, his, his no, absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's not his fault that that that the veterinary world has not been interested in this. It's not you know.
Speaker 3:I commend him for it because you know I wouldn't have known what to do. I'd have been like, well, that's a this, it's not. Yeah, I commend him for it because I wouldn't have known what to do. I'd have been like, well, that's a number and it's not another number.
Speaker 3:So I also that's why I want to add to encourage to bring your animals to the vet also because you may be providing data. You could be providing data that could improve the care for a lot of animals that we have in captivity that, let's face it, we really don't know how to care for. You know, I I think Savannah monitors are better pets than people make them out to be, but I'll be the first to tell you that there's a lot of things about their care that we just don't have figured out, that we do with, like a bearded dragon and a leopard gecko. So the more animals that go to the vet, the more data that gets turned in and eventually you'll start to see, you know, trends emerge. You see averages emerge. You'll see, you know what healthy animals look like under a microscope and what unhealthy animals look like under a microscope. But if you only have four animals, how do you establish that baseline?
Speaker 2:Right, right and and, like I said, there are good vets out there, like you, you can find them. I drive an hour each way, but I have a good vet who is knowledgeable about reptiles and um, and also does I mean, she's just a great human being. She does a lot of really good stuff for wild animals and and exotics, and you know, she's just she's just good, like I said, a good human being.
Speaker 3:So they're out there, I want to get this, this, uh, I just want to get this one, this one veterinarian's name right, because he was a good, he really was a was a good vet. Yeah, yeah, yep, santiago diaz santiago santiago diaz of oh what was it? Exotic animal hospital of orlando? Not a sponsor, not a sponsor, but just in case you are near Orlando.
Speaker 3:I mean by all means, by all means, if you're a listener go ahead and Google find something closer to you if you need to. But you know, at least that's something to start with.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's a, it's a name, it's, it's somebody that. Yeah, while we're making plugs.
Speaker 1:Florida wild and land is another one that does treat exotics that we've had a good experience with Cool.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you know. So we were going through kind of a list of treatments. Right, we got predatory mites ivermectin warnings you know, we gave the warnings about ivermectin. Ivermectin warnings you know, we gave the warnings about ivermectin. You guys also had pretty good success, at least eliminating some, with the Dawn and and water. Right, the Dawn dish, soap and water.
Speaker 3:It's a relief, more so than a cure, but I mean it's a, it's a relief, so it helps.
Speaker 2:It helps the snake um, soaking. Uh, like I said, I can't speak to the, the effectiveness, the risk of it, but I have heard people using um over the counter lice treatment. Um, I don't know what the active ingredient is. Uh, you know you mentioned NexGuard. I've heard, I've heard about NexGuard. Um, you know so.
Speaker 2:So there are there are treatments out there. You're not just limited to just to just one and and preventamites out there and I, lots of people have great success with preventamite. Um, so, again, not knocking the product, um, I know people have had, have had good success with it. So, um, yeah, there's lots of, there's lots of good, good things out there to to treat it and, um, and please treat it Right. I, like I said, I kept running into, um, you know, aside from the, uh, the just annoyance of having little bugs, um, you know I, I did keep running into that this could be a disease transmission vector. So you don't want your animal to get sick because you left a mite problem unattended and that's, like I said, anemia, just the fact that once the infestation gets, forget any of the other diseases, just anemia alone. Um, they, they can cause that, and I can't imagine how many mites it has to be to cause anemia.
Speaker 3:I just I there's actually a lot something I kind of I want to add. Just, you know, based off of our conversations with you know and other places, um, I think we should, and I think we should put out the message that, like people out there also, don't bring your animals at home to your stores, don't bring them to your shows, because that, because what could be happening is that you might have a mite infestation. That's not to say you're a bad keeper. You know every single everyone here has dealt with mites before. But you could very well be the one introducing them into a population, into a store, into a, into a, into a reptile expo, and you know where there's hundreds of animals. You know, if you're a breeder, I hope you are looking over every single snake, every single animal that you are dealing. You know mistakes happen, you know. I'm not saying that. You know. I'm not saying that you know, oh, the snake had a mite. Therefore, you're a bad breeder, you're a bad keeper, you're anything. You know, we all it happens.
Speaker 3:But I just really want to tell people to you know, just really be careful. And you know, it's one of those things that you know as we've dealt with it. You know, my eyesight has literally changed. When we're at, you know, when we're at the different shows and we see people bringing their animals from home Yep shows. And we see people bringing their animals from home yep, like it does. You know, on one hand it's like, oh, that's cool. You know, all of us are getting here together, we all love our animals, we all want to show each other animals. I get it. But like, I was watching it and I was like is that keeper 100? Sure that that enclosure that that they pulled that snake out of is completely mite free? Because, but also, even if they don't buy anything, even if they don't buy anything, anything and they bring the animal and someone else has mites, they just, they just infested their own snake.
Speaker 2:Yep, it could go one way, it could go both ways. Right, it definitely could go both ways. Um yeah, I, I. I tend to agree with you, I don't. Um yeah.
Speaker 3:And I and I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything, it's just one of those things that kind of hit me at the last show that we worked.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, yeah, it's definitely something, something to think about. It's definitely something to think about. And again, that's not just mites, right, it's any kind of infectious, anything infectious, right, you could, you could and you know, you. You hope that everybody's sanitizing their hands and doing the right thing, but it would be a terrible mistake to make, right, if you lost your, you know, your prized animal because you, you know, went to a show and didn't wash your hands in between handling an animal and your animal and then you know, the worst happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, nope.
Speaker 3:Well, that's all I had to say about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean mean I think we covered, I think we kind of beat mites to death.
Speaker 1:hopefully, I think now everyone knows what they might do should they encounter this they might have even enjoyed listening to this conversation they might have, please subscribe.
Speaker 2:They might have even enjoyed listening to this conversation. They might have. They might have Yep, please subscribe. We promise we won't do this again. The bad pun At least for a week, no, chris, is lying, at least for a week.
Speaker 3:We will absolutely be doing bad puns.
Speaker 1:We've set a new precedent.
Speaker 3:Fair enough. All right, so I can promise the next three business days.
Speaker 2:Yes, no more bad puns. No more bad puns, yep.
Speaker 3:Yep, all right. So, chris, you want to? Actually I started, chris presented Cassie. You want to lead us out?
Speaker 1:Like us on social media. Email us at US arc. Fl unleashed at no it's podcast. Nope, so we have we listen everybody we have an email address because we would love to hear from you guys and it is podcast at us arc FL unleashedcom. Let us know your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yes, we would love to hear from us your might stories, your might solutions, suggestions and recommendations.
Speaker 2:Tell us everything yeah, that's what I was gonna say, absolutely like we. You know, if there's topics folks want us to cover um guests that they'd like us to have, we'd love to hear it. Um, especially if you have information on how to contact that guest even better. Um, but but definitely, you know, we're always looking for topics, always looking have. We'd love to hear it, especially if you have information on how to contact that guest even better. But definitely we're always looking for topics, always looking for guests.
Speaker 3:And you guys might have some good ideas.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're done. Y'all All right. Well, everyone, thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed. We'll see you next time.
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